Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Monument of Independence (Kiev)

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Files in Category:Monument of Independence (Kiev) 1

Per COM:FOP#Ukraine: non-free monument (early 2000s).

Eleassar ^(t/p) 20:32, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

File:Maidan Nezalezhnosti 001.jpg - main part is New Year tree --Butko (talk) 04:24, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep several files where the monument is not the main element:
- File:Maidan Nezalezhnosti 001.jpg (focus on Christhmas tree, the monument is out of focus)
- File:Maidan Nezalezhnosti square with the monument to Berehynia in the foreground and Hotel Ukrayina on the background (8600756123).jpg, File:Maidan Nezalezhnosti6.jpg and File:Монумент Незалежності України.jpg are broad views of the square, although monument is in the centre due to its location in the centre of the square
- File:Pechersk 28 09 13 229.JPG, File:Pechersk 28 09 13 231.JPG and File:Вечірній майдан.JPG are broad views of the square with the monument not being the central element, being on the background and taking just some 2% of the square of the image
- File:Монумент на площі Незалежності.JPG is a view of the square from the roof of one of nearby buildings with monument taking just some 2% of the square of the image
- File:Украина, Киев - Монумент Независимости 02.JPG is a picture of the stage with the monument being in background
- On File:Украина, Киев - Монумент Независимости 11.jpg the monument is hardly visible at all: it's very distant from the photographer
Some other pictures are not focused on the monument but those not listed here are hardly useful for encyclopedia — NickK (talk) 01:31, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In regard to File:Maidan Nezalezhnosti 001.jpg: from some other angle, the focus would be only on the tree, but in this case the focus is on both the tree and the monument. In regard to the rest, per COM:DM#An example, what matters is the photographer's intent and one cannot make a work de minimis by including more of the surrounding area. The interest of the photographer was the monument, given the files' titles and descriptions and the fact that they were uploaded as part of the 'Wiki Loves Monuments' initiative. --Eleassar ^(t/p) 08:45, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The only reason to tag all these images as images of the statue was participation in WLM: images of monuments were accepted (this statue is a monument), but images of the whole square were not (the ensemble of the square is not protected as a monument). Thus people did tagged these images as those of monuments, although many names (like File:Maidan Nezalezhnosti 001.jpg or File:Вечірній майдан.JPG) indicate these images are views of the whole square, not of that particular monument — NickK (talk) 17:02, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Some of these images are illustrations to articles. Because you want to delete all the images of this object, the Wikipedia remain without illustrations. A part in the WLM will be for you a clue where to look for pictures to be deleted. It turns out that people are trying to send pictures of the object, and you are removing. In this case, please contact the organizers WLM them to clean the object from the list, because you can still remove all. Same goes for these photos. — Star61 12:02, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Kept three per discussion above, Deleted the rest. The argument that some of the images are of the whole square does not address the fact that the monument is physically at the center of the square and therefore is central to all the images. This probelm is addressed by FOP laws, but there is none in Ukraine. . Jim . . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 11:06, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Files in Category:Monument of Independence (Kiev) 2

No FoP in Ukraine - 2001 monument

INeverCry 08:36, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

File:Maidan Nezalezhnosti 001.jpg was already kept as it is focused on the Christmas tree, not on the monument
File:Kiev Independence Square cropped.jpg and File:Kiev Independence Square.jpg are the views of the entire square, while the monument is clearly visible it is not the main subject of the image. Same for File:Kiev Maidan Nezalezhnosti IMG 6377 1725.jpg and File:Maidan Nezalezhnosti2.jpg — NickK (talk) 14:04, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In File:Kiev Independence Square cropped.jpg and File:Kiev Independence Square.jpg, the copyrighted monument is dead-centered and is the focal point that the composition is anchored on. It's also centered in File:Kiev Maidan Nezalezhnosti IMG 6377 1725.jpg and looks to be the focal point there too. It's somewhat less the focal point of File:Maidan Nezalezhnosti2.jpg, but is still very prominent, taking up about a 3rd of the image. INeverCry 02:56, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted as nominated with following exceptions: File:Maidan Nezalezhnosti 001.jpg (focus obviously on the tree), File:Maidan Nezalezhnosti2.jpg (focus on the buildings), File:80-391-1041 Nezalegnosti 6.jpg (focus on the people). --AFBorchert (talk) 09:13, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Files in Category:Monument of Independence (Kiev) 3

As with the previous nominations — there's still no FOP in Ukraine.

Base (talk) 01:47, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

- In File:Kiyv Montage 2016.png added 2 free images — File:VCH Верх Рада CHUPRINA ©.jpg and File:Вид на Майдан (празднование Дня Независимости) 1-2 - View of the Maidan (Independence Day celebration) 1-2 (9644931058).jpg --AlexTref871 (talk) 06:22, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. A really poor nomination as most of these files do not illustrate the monument itself but the square as the whole, an event or a nearby building (mostly Kyiv Conservatory), which is COM:DM.
- These files were already discussed and kept:
  - File:2005-08-15 Maidan Nezalezhnosti Kiev 261.JPG: kept on 27 April 2013 (see file talk)
  - File:80-391-1041 Nezalegnosti 6.jpg: kept on 1 November 2014 (see above)
  - File:Maidan Nezalezhnosti2.jpg: kept on 1 November 2014 (see above)
  - File:Майдан Независ - panoramio.jpg: kept on 29 April 2016 (see file talk)
  - File:Монумент Незалежності.jpg: kept on 29 April 2016 (see file talk)
  - File:Украина, Киев - Монумент Независимости 02.JPG: kept on 19 May 2014 (see above)
  - File:Украина, Киев - Монумент Независимости 11.jpg: kept on 19 May 2014 (see above)
- These files illustrate a wide view of the Independence Square (Maidan Nezalezhnosti), with monument being only a small (minor) part of it. It is obvious even from names and descriptions of those files.
  - File:Independence square, Kiev, Ukraine.jpg
  - File:Kiev Maidan Nezalezhnosti IMG 6359 1725.jpg
  - File:Kiev's Independence Square.jpg
  - File:Kyiv mainsquare.jpg
  - File:Maidan kiev.JPG
  - File:Maidan Nezalezhnosti1.jpg
  - File:Maidan Nezalezhnosti2.jpg
  - File:MaidanNezalezhnosti.jpg
  - File:MaidanNezalezhnosti2.jpg
  - File:Plaza de la Indepencia (8252134130).jpg
  - File:Ukraine, Kiev Maydan Nezalezhnosti Independence Square (3943407600).jpg
  - File:Монумент Незалежності (3).jpg (albeit described as picture of the monument, the monument itself is just 1% of the photo) (my mistake is to name the file as the monument, not the square)
- These files depict events in the square, which in addition to picturing the whole square but not just the monument, also fall under current events provision in the Ukrainian law:
- These files illustrate Kyiv Conservatory:
  - File:Kyiv IMG 1520 80-382-0071.JPG (can be cropped if needed)
  - File:Київ. Фасад консерваторії.JPG
Please do case by case review as Commons rules have not changed either, and there is no reason to overturn the decision on photos kept per COM:DM in 2013 or 2014 — NickK (talk) 07:07, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Photos where the monument isn't the only thing pictured, so loosely and contrary to precautionary principle COM:DM could be perhaps applied also usually picture either or both of w:Hotel Ukraine (copyright protected), Globus trade centre (the glass building in front of the hotel, official site, copyright protected), mentioned by NickK w:Tchaikovsky National Music Academy of Ukraine (built in 1890s, destroyed in WW2, rebuilt in 1955 with changes, architect died in 1970 — probably copyright protected), monument to legendary founders of Kyiv (on File:80-391-1041 Nezalegnosti 6.jpg just after the random people, erected in 2001 — copyright protected) general view on the w:Maidan Nezalezhnosti (majorly reconstructed in 2001 — most probably copyright protected). For some of the files like the mentioned File:80-391-1041 Nezalegnosti 6.jpg there could be a claim that it actually depicts neither of those as the main subject, but then they are likely to fall beyond COM:PS — photos of random people do not have any educational value and furthermore could violate personality rights. A case by case review is indeed needed but please do not omit the fact that the Monument is far the only copyright protected building or structure out there. --Base (talk) 23:54, 27 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
One cannot copyright a square. There was no major architectural change in 2001, all buildings remained intact, and replacing asphalte with granite and vice versa or replacing grass with flowers does not create anything copyrightable. w:Tchaikovsky National Music Academy of Ukraine was not completely destroyed during WW2, exterior walls of the building survived and the main change was adding a concert hall inside, which is not quite a change affecting the façade of the building. Thus despite the fact that the monument is copyrighted the entire square cannot be copyrighted.

The fact that many photos from this nomination were nominated for the very same reason (no freedom of panorama in Ukraine) and were kept before means they should not be nominated again with the same reason (no freedom of panorama in Ukraine). This is not a game, and I don't want to repeat the same arguments again and again. For instance, File:Украина, Киев - Монумент Независимости 02.JPG depicts the stage of a festival on the square, with buildings and the monument itself far from the photographer. File:Украина, Киев - Монумент Независимости 11.jpg is not quite useful for illustrating any of the buildings in the square (neither of buildings is in focus) but is useful for illustrating the view of the square.

Same reasoning applies for other photos I mentioned. For instance, one cannot say that the main goal of File:Kyiv mainsquare.jpg was to picture that monument which is so small that the statue is barely recognisable, the photo clearly depicts the view of the square with focus on a fountain. Or, for instance, File:Киев, Майдан Незалежности (444166925).jpg: it is hardly usable for illustrating the monument, but it is clearly usable to illustrate a meeting in the square. And so on, so forth — NickK (talk) 00:53, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I do not see why not, square composition, fountains, monuments, buildings placement look as a pretty artistic activity to me. Or at least tiles pattern around the monument is no different than creating any other 2-D artwork. Unless the law has something about it, I is very possible that I might be unaware of some points in it. I am pretty sure admins are capable of reading the arguments above without you repeating them, as to my renomination there's a couple of reasons: it is impossible to see if the file was nominated before in VFC interface, as I said only the monument itself was considered before. And as it goes there might be other reasons besides the FoP issue. Of the files you've mentioned File:Украина, Киев - Монумент Независимости 11.jpg — a badly cropped file of random people and actually it does not even show the square, what is seen best are tents of Chernihivske beer company but the photo would be a poor illustration of those too. Kyiv mainsquare.jpg shows Globus trade centre and the monument at the very center of it, so I higly doubt it is not actually showing them as a main subject but if we believe that this much is ok then I am pretty sure that this photo must be deleted as a poorer quality equivalent of File:Монумент Незалежності (3).jpg. File:Киев, Майдан Незалежности (444166925).jpg as much as I like the legendary k750i this cameraphone provided hardly good quality for illustrating anything, this and non-existent description on what event are those flags connected to non-surprisingly yield in zero image usage. In File:Украина, Киев - Монумент Независимости 02.JPG description clearly indicates that it was the monument which was what the author intended to photograph, but even if we overlook this fact then we have another image of random people on random and unidentified event which is absolutely unusable in educational context. Flickr and other services have wider scope and are a better fit to accommodate such photos. As to the majority of the files you suggested to keep they contain the monument and it is clearly in focus and in the very centre of the images. The monument is designed to be the main part of the square and plays this role very well. Unfortunately for us this means that the monument also becomes the central part of almost any photo depicting the wide view on the square. --Base (talk) 01:38, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Building placement is purely factual information and it cannot be copyrighted. Moreover, it was the monument that was placed next to existing buildings and not vice versa, and the shape of the square did not change in 2001, thus the decision NOT to change building placement is hardly copyrightable. The fact that, say, Kyiv Conservatory is 20 m south of the monument is a factual information that cannot be copyrighted, otherwise we would have to close OpenStreetMap if even relative positions of buildings become copyrighted.

The fact that the monument was built to be in the center of the square is exactly the reason why COM:DM should apply: it is impossible to picture any view of the square or any event in the square without picturing the monument. Your statement that the monument also becomes the central part of almost any photo depicting the wide view on the square is exactly what unavoidable in COM:DM means.

Your nomination is only about lack of freedom of panorama, not about educational value of files like File:Украина, Киев - Монумент Независимости 11.jpg or quality of files like File:Киев, Майдан Незалежности (444166925).jpg. If you want to discuss educational value or quality of these files please discuss it separately — NickK (talk) 14:13, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Buildings placement indeed is factual there. Structures placement is not. This situation may be simmilar to Louvre piramid example in DM, but I am sure it is not. The monument here is much more eye catching both by contrast and by sheer size. It is not something that just happens to be in a photograph. It is something that you clearly notice when making a photo and make part of composition, usually the main one. I do not see why the nomination must be limited to consider just part of the arguments. The new nomination would be on this very same page and it looks like a violation of WP:POINT to reboot nomination for part of the files with extended arguments rather than just voice them while the original nomination is running. Though surely that's what I am going to do if decision making admin supports your statement. --Base (talk) 16:10, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that the monument is eye-catching (so is Louvre Pyramid, by the way) does not make it excempt from COM:DM. For instance, it is hardly eye-catching at File:Украина, Киев - Монумент Независимости 11.jpg, just some 1% of photo in the background. Again, it is clear that it is almost impossible to take a photo of the square without this monument, which is the unavoidability clause from COM:DM.

Just to show the absurdity of your arguments regarding quality and usefulness, let's take File:Kyiv mainsquare.jpg. It is widely used and thus clearly is a useful illustration of what a square looks like: it is even used to illustrate the article Square in multiple wikis (da:Torv, hr:Trg, no:Torg, sh:Trg). Its resolution is not high enough for a QI but it still was chosen as Image of the Day on Spanish Wikipedia, see es:Wikipedia:Recurso del día/diciembre de 2007. Surely its quality is high enough that they placed it on their main page for one day. If it shows a square well enough to illustrate the article Square and if it is of sufficient quality to be on a main page, why would we want to delete it?

Finally, if you have different arguments (and you state at least three groups of arguments: FOP, quality and value), please do not place all images into the same nomination. I got lost in your argumentation and cannot find which argument(s) apply to each of the 40 images you nominated — NickK (talk) 01:02, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: This DR is a bit to big and difficult to deal with. It would be much better to address problems with smaller/individual DRs as needed. --INeverCry 00:33, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Files in Category:Monument of Independence (Kiev) 4

There is no FOP in Ukraine (see FOP in Ukraine). Built in 2000s.

Kulmalukko (talk) 21:28, 25 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: per nomination. . Jim . . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 14:23, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Files in Category:Monument of Independence (Kiev) 5

No FOP in Ukraine. Erected in 2001.

Kulmalukko (talk) 12:17, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: per nomination. Ruthven (msg) 06:32, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]